In this unsettling and wide-ranging transcript, ostensibly recorded during his home detention, Jeffrey Epstein engages in a surreal dialogue—reportedly with former White House strategist Steve Bannon. The conversation veers wildly from the high-minded theories of the Santa Fe Institute and the "unexplainable" nature of quantum physics to the gritty reality of his time in solitary confinement during the 2008 Financial Crisis, surviving on "Almond Joy" bars.
Epstein attempts to intellectualize his life and crimes, deflecting moral responsibility by hiding behind complexity theory. He offers a revisionist history of the global market collapse, placing the blame squarely on Bill Clinton, and ends with a disturbing reflection on the nature of the soul, dirty money, and the Devil himself.
THE TRANSCRIPT
Interviewer: Before we get into the deep stuff, let's just talk. Let's give some basics or some things I want to do inquiry from the others. Walk me through the Santa Fe Institute. What was it about the time of the math? And this was in the late 90s. So, they're not going to hear me on this part, right?
Epstein: We're going to do it both ways.
Interviewer: It will not be on the video, but we do have you recorded.
Epstein: Fine. Remember, when you're answering the questions... on these questions, I'm not in the shot and they're never going to hear my voice. So a little bit you got to repeat the... in your answer you got to repeat what my question was.
Interviewer: Oh, okay. Um, Santa Fe Institute. Why, when you're at the top of your game on Wall Street, do you decide to finance—which was at the time, or endow or become the donor sponsor, however you want to say it—for what was considered the most cutting-edge group of mathematicians in the world? Action.
Epstein: So, Santa Fe Institute in the late 80s, early 90s. I was interested as I was on the board of Rockefeller. So that starts Rockefeller University, formed by John D. Rockefeller to sort of give back to the community. It's the east side of Manhattan, except it was old. It was sort of old-fashioned. They were talking about medicine, and medicine by itself was again subject to the ideas of science. They were trying to use science to find cures for disease, and I said no, we need to do something different. We need to start interdisciplinary work in most...
Interviewer: How did a schmuck like you get on the board of Rockefeller? What year was that?
Epstein: I don't remember. Late... I think '89 or '91.
Interviewer: So that's one of the most prestigious research places in the world, correct?
Epstein: Yes.
Interviewer: Okay, how did a guy like you get on the board of Rockefeller? A blueblood, internationally known... hard research Nobel Prize winners all over the place. How do they pick a guy like you, a trader from... or basically some guy from Bear Stearns?
Epstein: Good question. So, I was asked to be on the board of Rockefeller. Uh, there was a money manager who said Rockefeller needs someone with financial expertise because the university is growing and there's lots of new things. You have to again, we go back to the original discussion the last time. Up until the mid-80s or sort of early mid-70s, the most important thing was your name. If you were Rockefeller, you already were considered to be brilliant. If you were head of General Motors, it was your reputation. It was who you knew, who your family was, what was your character. And then in the mid-70s, basically, if you remember, you probably had a calculator. It was very advanced in those days to have a Texas Instruments calculator where... it would multiply for you to do square roots. And everyone who had a calculator was already advanced on Wall Street. The most important parts of business were really now going to calculations. So it's not only mathematics but things that could be calculated. Reputation couldn't be calculated. People, places like Rockefeller needed someone to say, "Look, we're entering a different world where numbers and the numbers of companies, portfolio management was going to be balanced. It was going to be statistical." Jeffrey, could you come on the board, potentially sit on the finance committee? Nancy Kissinger and a bunch of other people... and David Rockefeller and I got along very well. He was just this unbelievable human being. Respectful to everyone. He introduced his driver as his colleague, not his driver. David started to explain to me world politics. So David would say, "Jeffrey, money is going to be sort of the most important thing. People don't understand money. You seem to have this knack for money."
Interviewer: Most people... are most people you meet, even on the Trilateral Commission, do you find most leaders financially illiterate?
Epstein: Economically illiterate. Most political leaders don't come out of a background of finance; most political leaders come out of a background of being popular. In some African countries, they might have been a military person... in our country, they would have been an actor. The knowledge of money isn't... they don't have expertise. They have no degrees in finance. This is one of the major problems. Their expertise, if they have any financial knowledge, is of their own checking account. So many world leaders who don't really have a financial underpinning make fundamental errors when it comes to money on a country or institutional level. Let me give you an example. If you, Mr. Bannon, if I said your assets increased last year, you'd say, "That sounds pretty good." I guess I'm wealthier. But institutions like banks... If I say your bank, Mr. Bannon, doubled its assets, it sounds good. But what does it really mean? It means people owe you more money. A bank's assets are how much it is owed by other people. That's crazy. We have something called fractionalized reserves. If you have one dollar, you can lend out nine. That's the way our system works. And so not only do world leaders not understand banking, but the man on the street... it would be beyond his imagination that people could lend out more money than they actually had in their pocket.
[ON THE 2008 CRASH & PRISON]
Interviewer: Sunday afternoon, September 14th, 2008. Where were you?
Epstein: I was in jail.
Interviewer: Seriously? So, the financial crisis of 2008 happened when you were in jail?
Epstein: Yes.
Interviewer: I take it you didn't have your Wall Street Journal dropped off to you in the morning... How did you hear about what was going to happen to Lehman Brothers?
Epstein: I'm glad you asked that question. I was in solitary confinement, September 14th. Unlike some of the public stories about the wonderful time I had in jail... I'd been there since June in an 8x10 cell with a bed in the back, a chrome sink with a toilet attached to it. One of the guards said, "Do you understand? Wall Street's crashing. I'm worried about my pension fund. What should I do?" I said, "Sorry, Wall Street's crashing? What's happened?" He said, "There's some crisis and some companies are going bankrupt... There's another company on the front page today called Bear Stearns." "Oh no," I said. Because that's the company I was a partner in. So, I didn't have my Wall Street Journal, but in the early mornings, you're allowed to make two phone calls. Collect. I called Jimmy Cayne, the president of Bear Stearns. And I said, "Tell me what's going on."
Interviewer: Did it strike you at the time... the mess you had made of your life? To be in a situation where you're one of the greatest financial minds in the world... and here you are in solitary confinement, making a collect call? Did it strike you how all the threads of your life had come together to put you in that position?
Epstein: No.
Interviewer: You can't possibly expect me to believe this.
Epstein: I know. You're suggesting I was sort of somewhat depressed... No, I would just say, "How strange that this happens." Just it's strange. I'm wearing a jumpsuit and flip-flops.
Interviewer: What color was the jumpsuit?
Epstein: Brown.
Interviewer: You had lived on information...
Epstein: ...except my Almond Joy bars. I had extra Almond Joy bars.
Interviewer: Did you eat Almond Joy bars because you were afraid of what the cooks did to your food?
Epstein: Yes.
Interviewer: Is that because of the crimes that you were in for?
Epstein: No, it was just because I was wealthy. People would ask to borrow money... The comments were, "It serves you rich guys right that you're here next to me."
[ON BILL CLINTON & THE CRISIS]
Interviewer: In the run-up to the September crash of 2008... The smartest guys in the room decided not to save Lehman Brothers. Why?
Epstein: It's like a medical procedure. If you have these systems... The doctor might decide to save your kidneys and let your gallbladder go because the gallbladder is less important. But what really happened... The real enemy of the finance system was Bill Clinton. If you ask me who caused the financial crisis, I would tell you it was Bill Clinton because of what Bob Rubin and he did to the financial system.
Interviewer: No... last time you talked to me about home ownership...
Epstein: No, not at all. It was Bill Clinton. Because Bill Clinton wanted to get votes from those people and he sold them the idea that instead of renting... he said, "I'm gonna show you a way you can own a house because I want your vote." So, I'm going to let you buy a house, Mr. Bannon, when really your credit is not good. So what we're going to do is we're going to call your credit situation "subprime." Oh, nobody knows what that means. Subprime. It sounds less judgmental than "bad credit." And he says to the banks, "If you don't lend to them, I'm going to make sure the Justice Department charges you with discriminatory lending." But he formed Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to guarantee the loan. The whole system becomes mired in subprime mortgages.
[ON THE NATURE OF LIFE AND THE SOUL]
Interviewer: Let's go back to human life. When do you think human life starts?
Epstein: You see, this is the question where you're asking me to measure something again.
Interviewer: You measure every day. You're a billionaire because you measure.
Epstein: I don't know what it means to be measured... It's abusive to my field.
Interviewer: When did you come to this "aha" moment? Was it in your solitary confinement?
Epstein: I wish it was because it would make such a great story for this interview, but it's not. I realized that... we've been looking at using science and mathematics [to explain life] and it's the wrong tool. It's obvious.
Interviewer: Institutions that are set up... should they take your money? Derek Bok at Harvard said, "Taking money for good causes is a good thing." So if Hitler took all the gold out of the teeth of the Jews and gave it to Heidelberg University... Derek Bok would say that was fine.
Epstein: In my case...
Interviewer: Is your money dirty money?
Epstein: No, it's not. Because I earned it.
Interviewer: You earned it advising the worst people in the world.
Epstein: If you asked the mothers in Pakistan and India who received the polio vaccine... ask them if Epstein should have helped these people.
Interviewer: If we told them the money came from a... Tier One sexual predator?
Epstein: I would say everyone said, "I want the money for my children."
Interviewer: If I told them the Devil himself said, "I'm going to exchange some dollars for your child's life"... Do you think you're the Devil himself?
Epstein: No. But I do have a good mirror.
Interviewer: It's a serious question. Do you think you're the Devil himself? Because you have all the attributes. You're incredibly smart. Remember, the Devil is brilliant. You read Milton's Paradise Lost?
Epstein: No, the Devil scares me.
Interviewer: Satan is the number one or two archangel. And the reason he goes to hell and leads the rebellion is because he can't be the top guy. And his thing is: "I'd rather reign in hell than serve in heaven."
Epstein: I saw that in a movie once called American Dharma. I don't remember who said it.
Interviewer: Okay, we have to go.
(End of Transcript)